Outer Tie Rods, question about play in them.

Robbabob

Robbabob

Member
Dec 10, 2012
1,098
Hey y'all.

Alignment shop says I need new TREs due to play in them. How much play is too much? My son and step-son both say we have a little and that it is normal as they need to flex. I do not want to change them if I don't have to. I will do them myself if required, but maybe the shop was trying to get more business for themselves if they can scare me enough (that ain't going to happen!).

Your input is always appreciated!

Thanks!
 
The ball should not be lose in the socket. If there is play there, they're shot.
 
TREs don't normally have a lot of play in them. How much do you trust this alignment shop? Get a second opinion from another shop if you can.
 
There is no sound when rocked, just a visible tiny amount of movement in the boot. I don't know, $60 each; I just don't want to change them if they are good. I'll have the wife stop in at a place I trust.

We did the LBJs yesterday, and the end links early last week. Alignment shop did find the LBJs bad, and we identified the end links ourselves; they were shot.

We'll see what they say tomorrow .

Thanks for the input!
 
Could always disconnect the end from the knuckel and see how much free wiggle the joint has. If it just flops around or is so loose that the boot actually pushes it around (like how my truck's UBJ was!) then that's another surefire sign.

How many miles on them?
 
Miles? Probably OE @120K ( or more). Surefire now? LOL The LBJs were original, and I'm sue the end links were too.

Feeling I know what your next comment will be.
 
When the tie rod on the voy went I could move the tire about an inch when jacked up... If you turn it back and forth and it doesn't move (grabbing at 9 and 3) Its probably fine.
 
Robbabob said:
Miles? Probably OE @120K ( or more). Surefire now? LOL The LBJs were original, and I'm sue the end links were too.

Feeling I know what your next comment will be.
Click to expand...

Depends. If they're worn, I wouldn't be surprised at the miles. Mine were dead at that point. But, they may have life left too, who knows. the 9-3 test is good, or like I said if in doubt pop it off the knuckle and check it directly.

If the boot is cracked though, I'd just plan on replacing them soon regardless. A bad boot will let crud in that can quickly kill a joint.
 
It's actually pretty simple. Put your hand on the ball end and have someone turn the wheel back and forth slightly. If there is play, you will feel it instantly. You will feel the arm move very slightly without a corresponding movement of the wheel. If there is the slightest play, just replace it. It's not too hard or expensive.

Sure they could last another day, week, month or year like that. But your steering would feel a bit "loose" and if you ever had one fail, you will come to an ABRUPT and uncontrolled stop on the highway in whatever lane it happens to end up in. Not good.

For comparison, feel a few other vehicles this way, and you will see what I mean. (I found three bad ones this way; one on my 04 that the shop had pointed out for me, and both on my wife's 07. I, of course, just replaced all four.)
 
X2 -^-- for @Chickenhawk...

@Robbabob ... The comments by the video poster are NOT reflected upon you... But to give an idea of what can happen suddenly and unexpectedly at 65 MPH on the highway just before the truck flips over and winds upside down on the side of the road... this video makes a perfect argument for not waiting too long to replace the TREs on the Vehicle:


EDIT:

This guy had the Tee-Total Hell scared out of him when his Driver's Side Tie Rod Failed:


...and at 23 Seconds and again at 1:55 into this one... I wonder what the two Dudes in the on-coming cars were thinking when they saw these things happening:


And from One of Our Own Members:

 
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A quick way that I check my outer tie-rods whenever I take the wheel off is I use a long pry bar that I put the end on something solid, like the knuckle, and middle of the bar on the top of the tie-rod and try to force it down. If there is movement, it's on its way out and plan to replace it soon. That's basically a spring load inside the joint that takes up internal slack as the ball and race wears. It would allow movement under full load and weight but may not be detectable with no weight on the wheel. You are basically seeing the end of life of the joint, sorta like the wear bars on a tire. You can still roll on it but performance will be degraded. If you get an alignment at this point, it would be wasted because the joint would need to be replaced soon anyway.

The 3 and 9 tire shake and the looseness test would only work on a completely worn joint that would need immediate replacement. This would be like running on a tire with the cords showing.
 
Be sure not to drive with a vehicle over 1 year old since the likelihood of parts failing is far more and you might die by flipping over into a creek after hitting a busful of nuns and accidently raping your cousin as the vehicle careens out of control.. Please watch some porn videos in case this becomes your situation by driving an old possibly worn out vehicle.
 
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LOL. I have checked out some of those videos of which you speak. I didn't find any advice on outer tie rod ends, but when I searched "tie" and "rod," I learned a WHOLE lot of new stuff.

However, you are quite correct. We spend far too much time worrying about what "might" happen. Worn outer tie rod ends may still last for years.

It's just that the consequences of this failure, although rare, are two wheels abruptly pointing in two different directions. I also worry about loose steering masking even more costly problems such as ball joints or even loose wheel nuts. I once saw a wheel fly off a pickup truck on a freeway in front of me. The wheel PASSED the truck, hit the median divider, bounced about 50 feet in the air and came crashing down on a car going the other way. It hit the center of the windshield, and sadly, I found out later that one occupant was killed.

As I rotate the tires on my wife's truck once every two years and switch to snows every year on my truck, I ALWAYS retorque the wheel nuts after a week.
 


This was the third tie rod we had to fix on trail in a weekend. Really only takes about 20 minutes and they are dirt cheap. I buy sets and keep spares cause 3 foot ditches will eat them occasionally.

--There are kinds of devastating stories. I had a locker pop all the studs off my burban and the rear tire pass me as I turned on to a state highway at about 5 mph. Nice slow settle on to the brake and a nice walk to retrieve the tire and wait for a tow. Also had someone use the wrong lug nuts on a trailer the wheel waller out the wheel holes til it slipped over the nuts while driving with two atvs on the trailer. Left a hell of a groove in the road as we ground to a stop. But then we just grabbed a tractor and picked up the end of trailer and got it out of the road.

Certainly wont tell people not to use lockers or trailers due to a couple freak things though. No need for a devils advocate.
 
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Short update . Wife was headed for second opinion and had a cylinder misfire today. I am on a quick business trip, so it gets to wait another couple days until I get home.

Thanks for the input! Will update y'all when I get to it.
 
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Let us know if we can help out!
 
It's an easy DIY fix if you're at all handy.

FYI: This is too much play.

97667_c8de0ed727aa82524be160cc2cc96f7b.jpg
 
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Oh you have the greasable ends....Its easy to just pop the ball out of socket and get r lubed up that way! Lucky Ducky!
 
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Cure/update:

So, our sons changed the sway bar end links, and I helped with the LBJ's. We left the TRE's alone as they really do not look bad at all. Back to the alignment shop and no adjustments were needed.

With the LBJs, we didn't realize the calipers could stay on (most helpful threads said to remove them), so we did more work on the drivers side than the passenger side. I guess we had less weight to wrestle with by removing the parts.

Thanks again for all the input!
 
glad you got there. I am always "suspicious" about the "alignment guys" having gotten similar "diagnosis" without them doing any alignment yet charging there "check / stall" fee to look at things. I think most are hoping that the owner will go ... "oh, sure change them things out / get it done".
I have seen some pretty loose joints run along time. Unless you are doing some serious off roading or carrying significant loads, I am not sure why the alignment guys don't just do the alignment as requested to the best of their ability and note it on the work order and be done with it.

further, changing out LBJ shouldn't cause an alignment issue as there is nothing involved during that process that will ultimately change the alignment.
 
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Ever seen a vehicle shred tires because of worn joints, despite being "aligned"?

I have.

If the stuff is worn enough, you can't align it because it won't hold tight enough to align it. A little slop at a pivot point can mean a couple degrees variation by the time you get out to the end of the lever arm.

It can be a waste of time and money to try to align something with worn joints. That said, I do agree some shops are a little too eager to replace stuff to make some extra dough.
 
I didn't say that a bad ball joint can't cause an alignment "issue". Certainly it will likely result in a tire running "out of alignment"... what I was saying, was after you replace the LBJ, it is unlikely that an alignment will be necessary as there is nothing associated with doing a LBJ replacement that ultimately changes any of the actual alignment adjustments.
 
Sparky said:
It can be a waste of time and money to try to align something with worn joints. That said, I do agree some shops are a little too eager to replace stuff to make some extra dough.
Click to expand...

X2.

Many years ago when I was about 18 I had pretty much rebuilt the front end of my '65 Belair. I took it in for an alignment. The dope working on it tried to tell me I needed new outer tie rod ends and proceeded to demonstrate they were bad by twisting them back and forth, which is normal movement for them. I told him these are brand new and you know they are. I then said to get it off the lift I'm going somewhere else. He really thought I was naive. What a putz.
 
budwich said:
after you replace the LBJ, it is unlikely that an alignment will be necessary as there is nothing associated with doing a LBJ replacement that ultimately changes any of the actual alignment adjustments.
Click to expand...

I get what you're saying. Prior to the LBJ or UBJ going bad, your alignment was good. It may have gone out of alignment with the bad joint but replacing it will bring it back to the prior alignment. Only time you'll need an alignment is if you've changed a tie-rod, rack or LCA.
 
I had the outer TRE come apart at 129,000km. I had my family in the vehicle and thankfully was going quite slow and attempting to turn around on a gravel road. I ended up in the ditch and needed a tow. Again thankfully it was not a bit before or a bit after as we would have been on the highway.

If there is any question just change them, not worth the risk and they are really easy to do.
 
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